tate793 wrote:Well, since there is so much more to debate, I'll come outta retirement.
1. Based on all of your criteria, it's hard to figure how you can rate Magic above Kareem. Kareem scores higher in every category that you list.
2. Both Shaq and Duncan should rank higher than Bird.
Duncan Longevity 20 yrs Bird Longevity 13 yrs
Duncan 5 Championships Bird 3 Championships
Duncan 2 MVPs Bird 3 MVPs
Duncan 3 3 Finals MVPs Bird 2 Finals MVPs
Duncan 1 ASG MVP Bird 1 ASG MVP
Duncan 15 ASGs Bird 12 ASGs
Duncan Total All NBA 31 Bird Total All NBA 13
1st Team 11 1st Team 8
2nd Team 2 2nd Team 1
3rd Team 2 3rd Team 0
Defense 1st Team 8 Defensive 1st Team 0
2nd Team 6 2nd Team 3
Duncan Rebs Per G 10.8 Bird Rebs Per G 10.0
Duncan Total 15091 Bird Total 8974
Duncan Pts Per G 19.00 Bird Pts Per G 24.3
Duncan Total 26496 (17th) Bird Total 21791 (37th)
lakerevolution wrote:Tate - my comparison was between Duncan and Karl Malone. I don't know where Bird ranks, but I do know that for a gangly podunk white boy from French Lick he certainly was athletic, strong, deceptively quick with his hands and had an attitude to boot. Many of the romanticized, charismatic reasons we use to boost Jordan, Magic, Kareem and Kobe up our "best of" or "favorites" list are present with Bird as well. Dr. J, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Kobe, LeBron -- these guys didn't just have a scattering of great individual performances at certain times, they were consistently head-and-shoulders above their competition in their era during the regular season, generally elevated their game during the playoffs, and brought flair and drama to the sport on its biggest stage.
Bird-haters (which we've all been at some point) are gonna diminish his impact on the NBA just like LeBron-haters, Kobe-haters, etc will always do when talking all-time rankings. Karl Malone is hated for a number of reasons that have little to do with what he did on the court (going ringless doesn't help), and poor Timmy was just the most boring superstar to watch on the most boring multi-championship team in the last 15-20 years. If he learned to shoot FTs and was a little more Kevin Durant-ish in his personality and attitude, I guarantee the media - and therefore the masses of NBA fans - would have held him in higher regard. He should be above Shaq on any list, but alas the bigger, louder and flashier players will always get the brass ring. Think if Grant Hill would never have had all those injuries and gone on to lead a squad to a few titles - would his quiet, gentlemanly demeanor have worked for or against him?
Again - I'm not sure where Bird ranks now among the all-timers. My feeling is that he can't be ranked above LeBron anymore, and should probably be neck-and-neck with Tim no matter where those two are ranked. We probably need a separate Centers list.
tate793 wrote:lakerevolution wrote:Tate - my comparison was between Duncan and Karl Malone. I don't know where Bird ranks, but I do know that for a gangly podunk white boy from French Lick he certainly was athletic, strong, deceptively quick with his hands and had an attitude to boot. Many of the romanticized, charismatic reasons we use to boost Jordan, Magic, Kareem and Kobe up our "best of" or "favorites" list are present with Bird as well. Dr. J, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Kobe, LeBron -- these guys didn't just have a scattering of great individual performances at certain times, they were consistently head-and-shoulders above their competition in their era during the regular season, generally elevated their game during the playoffs, and brought flair and drama to the sport on its biggest stage.
Bird-haters (which we've all been at some point) are gonna diminish his impact on the NBA just like LeBron-haters, Kobe-haters, etc will always do when talking all-time rankings. Karl Malone is hated for a number of reasons that have little to do with what he did on the court (going ringless doesn't help), and poor Timmy was just the most boring superstar to watch on the most boring multi-championship team in the last 15-20 years. If he learned to shoot FTs and was a little more Kevin Durant-ish in his personality and attitude, I guarantee the media - and therefore the masses of NBA fans - would have held him in higher regard. He should be above Shaq on any list, but alas the bigger, louder and flashier players will always get the brass ring. Think if Grant Hill would never have had all those injuries and gone on to lead a squad to a few titles - would his quiet, gentlemanly demeanor have worked for or against him?
Again - I'm not sure where Bird ranks now among the all-timers. My feeling is that he can't be ranked above LeBron anymore, and should probably be neck-and-neck with Tim no matter where those two are ranked. We probably need a separate Centers list.
Ok. I obviously thought you were referencing Bird/Duncan. Duncan and Malone are neck-and-neck in the convo of best PF of all time. Even though he played a lot of center, causing the convo to be convoluted. His "boringness" is one of the qualities that endears him to the fundamentalists. As does his quiet demeanor by which he goes about doing his job. Karl had the crafty John Stockton constantly feeding him in his sweet spots, especially at the elbow. Karl, like Timmy, was a double/double machine. To his credit, Duncan is a product of his upbringing in the Virgin Islands. The cultural attributes of respectful, quiet, work ethic and studious could have a lot to do with his demeanor. I remember when there was a question regarding Kobe's street cred because he came across as a goody-two-shoes (up until the Colorado incident). Probably why Joey Crawford had a hard on for Duncan is because he couldn't get a raise outta him.
tate793 wrote:Lakers4Life wrote:Timmy = No wow. And to be an an all-time great you got to wow. What's his go to move? Does he have one? Yes he's "fundamental" but does that make him the best of the best? He gots the basics down. Whoopi doo. That makes him a great team player/system guy. I'm not saying he's no good. But the best of the best need to be scrutinized a little more.
Timmy has the most accurate, efficient and remarkable bank shot in the last 20 yrs. That fadeaway bank from the left side and low block is his go-to move. And, why don't you check the much-ballyhooed list, (pick any one you like) and see who is listed as "the best of the best" in power forwards. Then, you can answer your own questions. [Hint* - I have never seen an "All Time Greatest PF's that did not list Tim Duncan as #1]. So, do your scrutinizing. Whoopi doo.
So, tell me, what's Pau's go-to move? Does he have one?
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