Another New List Thread

Re: Another New List Thread

Postby Lakers4Life » Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:36 am

The players that have wowed me are:

Kobe
MJ
Magic
Shaq
Kareem
Lebron
Wilt
Baylor
Russell
West
Dr. J
Bird
Dominique
Olajuwon


I'm sorry but Duncan doesn't wow anybody. He's solid. And arguably the best power forward ever but he's too unassuming to be considered above some of the all time greats
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Re: Another New List Thread

Postby Lakers4Life » Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:50 pm

tate793 wrote:Wow. You must have watched some bad film, or read some bad articles. Because Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Wilt [and Oscar Robertson - even though you didn't name him] were all "unassuming". So was Bill Russell. Maybe, it's because you didn't get an opportunity to see them play over the span of a season, or, in person. Hell, they all had retired before you were in kindergarten.

Pistol Pete Maravich, Russell Westbrook, have wow factors - I guess one would have to appreciate their style of play.


To make a statement like "Duncan doesn't wow anybody", suggests that you didn't see enough of Duncan to appreciate him.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2L8TjvPQE8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0MfZxroXQY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ODRyXOurng


Watch, and then tell me how "unassuming" Tim Duncan actually is.


I'm not 3-Peat. He may enjoy you dismissing his basketball knowledge because he's not as old as you but I don't play that. Being old isn't necessarily an asset when judging all-time greats. Matter of fact I can make a case that you being older is actually a negative and makes your opinion even more irrelevant than a younger person who has a love & passion for the game. Bottom line it doesn't make your argument stronger. And you actually use it to try to diminish anyone younger than you and their opinions. So just cut that out. At least with me.

Anyways, what wows me is different than what wows you. And I'm fine with that. I guess you're not. Get over it.

How's Wilt, Russell, West, Baylor unassuming?

Wilt was a dominant offensive force. They even had to change the rules to keep him out of the paint and dunking over everybody. He mastered other finesse moves anyways that made him just as dominant.

Russell was an awesome defensive force who dominated and protected the paint like nobody else in the history of the game. He didn't score as much as Wilt but he didn't have to. More rings than anybody and that 69 title when the Lakers were ready to celebrate a championship at the forum in game 7 cemented his dedication and heart. I'll never forget how exhausted he was and teared up after that game.

West is the freaking logo for Christmas sake. Enough said.

Elgin Baylor was Michael Jordan before ...... Michael Jordan. He had some amazing moves and shots. He could do everything on the court. How's that not WOW?
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Re: Another New List Thread

Postby 3Peatkb24 » Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:32 pm

Craig, that is why I made a separate list = Players I have seen live which is roughly 40 seasons of Basketball so the 1 thing Tate could hold against me being watching certain players live, he cant when I do that list. I started watching when I was like 5 years old and actually remember the 1977 Finals between Doc and Walton. That was my first memory and I knew of Kareem playing for the Lakers which he was my favorite player. Of course I had to adjust my list with LeBron winning the Championship this season but I still feel my list is solid from 1977-2016 =
1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Kobe
5. LeBron
6. Shaq
7. Duncan
8. Bird
9. Hakeem
10. Moses
11. I would put Karl Malone here. I think Karl was a tad better than Doctor J. He was more dominant than Barkley, Isiah Thomas, Wade, or Dirk as well IMO. Even Tate actually acknowledged this was a Good list so I feel content with it for now. Of course we all could still debate and have Kobe even higher or switch a couple of players around but I like this list overall.
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Re: Another New List Thread

Postby lakerevolution » Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:15 pm

ESPN is fwapping itself with all these über-analytics about the top few draft picks. "Ben Simmons has the 2nd-highest chance to play at an all-star level by his 5th year . . ." blah blah blah. And of course NOW Brandon Ingram is being touted as the real #1 valued pick, even though allegedly Simmons is a lock in Philly. Good - I like Ingram's energy and spirit and I think he has a great start to his NBA career. And I know Mitch and Jim - those two intrepid talent-seekers extraordinaire - have at least one move to land a veteran who can help us get at least 30 wins.
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Re: Another New List Thread

Postby 3Peatkb24 » Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:22 pm

I can finally kick back for a couple of days now. Just got a bunch of food and loaded up on Crown. Off work now until late Friday night. I really hope the pick is either Simmons or Ingram, cant see why it wouldn't be (who ever is there at #2). We already have Russell so I see know way we take Buddy. Bender is unproven so I don't see that either.
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Re: Another New List Thread

Postby 3Peatkb24 » Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:27 pm

I will be happy with either Simmons or Ingram. I would prefer Simmons because I think he has more upside but Ingram is very capable of being as great and probably is more NBA ready because he can shoot better. Once Simmons improves his shot I can see him dominating in 2 or 3 years though.
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Re: Another New List Thread

Postby lakerevolution » Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:33 pm

Ingram's size, range and floor coverage will make him more NBA-ready, and we need his type of player more than a Simmons. Coach Luke's tutelage and dedication to X's and O's and DEFENSE will make our young squad over-achieve on a much more consistent basis. The Climb, baby, the Climb!!!
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Re: Another New List Thread

Postby Lakers4Life » Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:54 pm

tate793 wrote:First of all, there's a difference in what someone sees first hand, and, what someone reads or sees in a couple of video clips. My age is not a factor, just the fact that I actually saw the players that I talk about play. I saw them play against other players. Game situations that show their strengths and weaknesses. My age also says that I have had a great passion for the game longer than somebody younger, but, I'll get to all of that later.

Being the logo didn't have a fucking thing to do with Jerry West play on the court. It helped that he was a great player, but, the reason he is the logo is because the official NBA staff of the then commissioner selected the profile of a photograph of him and used it for a metdia guide. But watching him play he never changed his facial expression. Didn't get all pumped up, pumping his fist, opening his mouth wide, screaming, high-fiving, or anything of the sort. Neither did Baylor, Russell, Oscar Robrtson or Wilt. They didn't do it. Nobody reached out to touch hands after free throws, or, when going to the bench. That's what I mean by unassuming. Wilt never changed his game after they widened the lane. He didn't develop any finesse moves as you claim. He had the same moves his whole career. His finger roll, a turnaround jumper and his dunk. As a matter of fact, the widening of the lane wasn't to keep Wilt "out of the paint", but to make it more difficult for him to do his finger roll while remaining outside of the paint. His length allowed him to reach in without being in the paint. The additional 2' on either side of the basket prevented that.

The term you used was "unassuming" referencing Duncan. Then you listed your players that wowed you. I pointed out several of them that I had seen play, first hand, and knew that they were unassuming as well. I never said jack shit about them not having wow. So go back and read the posts, and get your fucking facts straight.

I don't put anybody down because of their age, but, I will state facts that I know because I've seen it first hand. Been a Laker fan since before they even moved to LA. Before Chick Hearn was calling the games. Lived in Minny during the time they were there. In Cali, my mom was Ruby Baylor's hairdresser. Knew them well. Ruby's younger brother is still one of my best friends. Not saying that makes me better than you. just that I have had more access to the NBA. Wilt was in Baylor's wedding. So was Oscar, as a matter of fact.

I don't even pretend to have the same convos with you that I have with 3Preat. I didn't address you in this thread, either. You made your comments


Craig wrote: but he's too unassuming to be considered above some of the all time greats


Craig wrote:How's Wilt, Russell, West, Baylor unassuming?




un·as·sum·ing

ˌənəˈso͞omiNG/Submit
adjective

not pretentious or arrogant; modest.

"he was an unassuming and kindly man"

synonyms: synonyms: modest, self-effacing, humble, meek, bashful, reserved, diffident; unobtrusive, unostentatious, low-key, unpretentious, unaffected, natural, artless, ingenuous, unpresuming



Those synonyms describe Wilt, Russell, Elgin, Jerry and Timmy perfectly. So maybe, Sir, you used the wrong word. Ya think? Oh, and one more thing. Go suck an egg.


I'm in Cancun Mexico having a great time with my wife & kids. So I don't have much time to argue with someone who is not open to maybe somebody younger having valid opinions/points of view on a sport they have loved with a passion since ....forever.

Maybe you did see certain players live with your own eyes or maybe you didn't. I don't give a fuck! Doesn't make your opinion. More valid than mine. I don't know what your criteria is or how you judge talent. All I know Is that I deserve for everyone to value my point of view. It's just as valid as yours is. And when you or anybody don't, expect me to tell you to fuck off.

Jerry West was Mr. Clutch (& the logo). His mental toughness was legendary. Even Michael Jordan wished that he could have played him 1 on 1 in his prime.

Wilt Chamberlain wasn't arrogant you say. Ha! He was one of the most arrogant professional athletes ever. So...? And the rule changes of widening the lane was made to make his finger rolling shot that much more difficult since he was forced farther out. That rule made him shoot farther away from the basket so that requires less power moves and more touch or finesse. Matter of fact Wilt went out of his way to not slam dunk the ball all the time to prove that he had more finesse moves to his game.

By the way my players who have wowed me list (it's my list, my opinion. Live with it) has nothing to do with " pumping their fist or opening their mouth".

You have had a cool life if what you say is true in here. But that doesn't make your opinion more valid than anyone else's.

All I'm asking for is for you to respect people's opinions that may be different than yours. Is that too much to ask for?

By the way, this is 3-Peat thread not yours. And you're wrong when you say that you didn't address me. So that's a lie. I responded to 3-Peat's thread and you addressed me sir.
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Re: Another New List Thread

Postby 3Peatkb24 » Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:16 pm

Didn't realize you were in Cancun Craig! Man that has to be nice. I honestly don't think having watching someone live gives a person a huge advantage of ranking that player. I say that because of todays technology. I have seen at least 100's of youtube clips regarding Wilt and Russell. ESPN Films has shown full games when Wilt played against the Knicks in the Finals so regarding me I have seen some of his games. Of course I never watched him over an 82 game span but still have seen a lot of his play. When I have watched him and have watched Kareem, to me Kareem was better. There wasn't one thing Kareem couldn't do. Wilt couldn't shoot FT's, same for Shaq. Russell had deficiencies on Offense. Kareem had 0 weaknesses.
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Re: Another New List Thread

Postby Lakers4Life » Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:25 pm

3Peatkb24 wrote:Didn't realize you were in Cancun Craig! Man that has to be nice. I honestly don't think having watching someone live gives a person a huge advantage of ranking that player. I say that because of todays technology. I have seen at least 100's of youtube clips regarding Wilt and Russell. ESPN Films has shown full games when Wilt played against the Knicks in the Finals so regarding me I have seen some of his games. Of course I never watched him over an 82 game span but still have seen a lot of his play. When I have watched him and have watched Kareem, to me Kareem was better. There wasn't one thing Kareem couldn't do. Wilt couldn't shoot FT's, same for Shaq. Russell had deficiencies on Offense. Kareem had 0 weaknesses.


Yeah 3-Peat I'm going to miss the draft tomorrow. But I'm having a blast. This place is paradise. I actually swam through 2 different tropical rivers through caves, waterfalls etc... It was amazing. The sand here is so soft. The water so crystal clear blue. Perfect weather.
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Re: Another New List Thread

Postby 3Peatkb24 » Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:27 pm

Lakers4Life wrote:
3Peatkb24 wrote:Didn't realize you were in Cancun Craig! Man that has to be nice. I honestly don't think having watching someone live gives a person a huge advantage of ranking that player. I say that because of todays technology. I have seen at least 100's of youtube clips regarding Wilt and Russell. ESPN Films has shown full games when Wilt played against the Knicks in the Finals so regarding me I have seen some of his games. Of course I never watched him over an 82 game span but still have seen a lot of his play. When I have watched him and have watched Kareem, to me Kareem was better. There wasn't one thing Kareem couldn't do. Wilt couldn't shoot FT's, same for Shaq. Russell had deficiencies on Offense. Kareem had 0 weaknesses.


Yeah 3-Peat I'm going to miss the draft tomorrow. But I'm having a blast. This place is paradise. I actually swam through 2 different tropical rivers through caves, waterfalls etc... It was amazing. The sand here is so soft. The water so crystal clear blue. Perfect weather.


Hell of a get away. I would rather be there than watch the Draft! You pretty much know who we are taking anyway. It will either be Simmons or Ingram. All you have to do is log in here anyway to see what is going on.
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Re: Another New List Thread

Postby 3Peatkb24 » Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:05 pm

When I say Wilt and Shaq couldn't shoot FT's, of course they both have had their moments where they did make some in critical moments but overall watching those 2 players at the line was like watching a horror show. Kareem was a lifetime 72% FT shooter so you couldn't just foul him purposefully. Bill Russell had one of the most ugliest Offensive games I have ever seen watching him on film.
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Re: Another New List Thread

Postby 3Peatkb24 » Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:07 pm

Tate

I do think watching someone live does have it's advantages because you can follow that players whole career over 82 game seasons is why I created a list since I have been watching. With todays technology it has at least allowed me to watch some footage of the older players like Wilt and Russell. I am fine with my list going by the late 70's upto now and I will just trust your judgement regarding the players from the 60's without much debate.
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Re: Another New List Thread

Postby 3Peatkb24 » Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:59 pm

tate793 wrote:i understand, and agree, 3Peat. I don't know what Craig's problem is. It's like the 3rd time he's jumped down my throat. While he may be a passionate fan, that doesn't make him knowledgeable about stuff he hasn't seen. Pisses me off when someone wants to argue about something that I witnessed first hand and they only know what they've heard somebody else say, what they've read or some random vintage clip. Hell, if you totaled up all of the available video on Wilt, there's less than an hour. Pretty much the same with West, Baylor, Big O or Russell.

Elgin and Ruby (the older sister of one of my best friends) had an anniversary bash, at which Wilt and Oscar were both there. Wilt was already pissed off because he had been traded from SF Warriors to the 76ers. He had smacked the other center Connie Dierking, because Dierking had elbowed him in the stomach because Wilt would call him Constance during practice. Well, when Wilt smacks somebody, they've (1) Pushed him too far and (2) They've been really SMACKED. He had a telegram from Alex Hanum about the lane widening that had been sent by Walter Kennedy (who was the Commissioner at that time) and it basically said that Wilt's length game him an unfair advantage over the opposition so they were widening the lane in the best interest of the league.


I respect anyone's opinion. But, when someone tries to tell me something about what I know first hand, and, they don't, it's just stupid. That would be like me telling you about drinking shots of Crowne when I've never tasted it. Just because he's a passionate fan, doesn't increase the validity of his opinion.

Anyhow, we got Brandon Ingram! :kingclaphands: Just so glad they didn't blow it by drafting the Dragan Bender. I may eat those words later, but, I doubt it.


I am very happy with our pick. I pretty much knew Simmons was going #1 so I am glad we took Ingram. I hope he turns out to be Durant like. It may take 2 or 3 years before he looks that Great but it's possible. I am glad too we didn't take Bender. We both may have to eat our words but I doubt it. Celtics taking Brown at #3 was a bit surprising. Bender just went #4 to the Suns.
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Re: Another New List Thread

Postby 3Peatkb24 » Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:54 am

I have seen tons of lists over the last few days and most have LeBron over Kobe which really irks me. Another reason why I can never root for him. If he keeps winning 99% of the media will put LeBron at #1 eventually. There is a real strong chance that the Cavs could Repeat and then 3Peat if they stay healthy. After beating a 73 win team on their home floor in Game 7, the sky is the limit!

I will defer to Tate somewhat with this list because it's my all-time list, including players that played in the 50's and 60's to who I have seen live:
1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Kobe Bryant
6. LeBron James
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Bill Russell
9. Tim Duncan
10. Larry Bird
11. Oscar Robertson
12. Hakeem Olajuwon
13. Jerry West
14. Moses Malone
15. Elgin Baylor
16. Karl Malone
17. Doctor J
18. John Havlicek
19. Isiah Thomas
20. Dwyane Wade
-Guys in Bold I never seen live. George Mikan, Charles Barkley, and Dirk Nowitzki are my 3 Honorable Mentions! Of course I know Tate will have West and Elgin much higher but this list is basically just opinion from what I have seen and going by a ton of criteria like Stats, MVP's, Championships won, Longevity, and I even sort of factored in who I would Draft over other players. There really is no right answer but out of all the players I have listed here, they are all Great in their own way and that is fact at least.
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